tv Child Sex Trafficking Part 3 CSPAN January 12, 2015 3:50am-4:36am EST
we need to train child welfare workers, but we also need to begin to have the dat -- the data to document it. we do have this problem where a girl -- girls who are not abused by their parent or caregiver are not cared for in the child welfare system so we don't have a part of our social safety net even prepared to deal with this population. so that's why we have to look at it from those three areas. and then one of the other problems in the child welfare system system is that trebling -- technically to access federal funding you need to break up the family. you need to remove the child from the family. we need have a more flexible way to deal with the funding so you can actually prevent the problem from happening to begin with. one aspect -- thank you. [applause] >> one aspect of the foster care system that is the most vulnerable are girls in group homes, because they're not even in a family setting at all.
so the group homes really become targeted very specifically by pimps. they know where the group homes are and they will go and recruit specifically there, and sometimes they'll get other girls to do that. the other place where girls are recruited are in juvenile detention centers where girls recruit each other. so given we know all of this information, we absolutely can prevent this from happening. but we do have to fundamentally change parts of the child welfare system in order to do it. >> congressman reichert, i want to congratulate you on the passage of your legislation preventing the sex trafficking and strengthening families act. you talked about that legislation. i i wonder if there are any other plans in the committee for expanding on the amazing work you were all able to do. >> well, i've moved on from the chairmanship of that committee to the tax committee. so, i -- so what i'm going to --
[laughter] i'll be the chairman of the revenue subcommittee on ways and means, but charles bustamonte and i have met. what you want to do when you talk about tax reform, you want to humanize tax reform. you want to really show people what happens when you cut this tax, or you raise this tax, and when you apply it to the social services world, you cut home services, home visits, for example, which are critical in rebuilding and connecting families together. home visitations are not a new thing. they've been going on since the
1970's. i started as a police officer in 1972 at 21 years old. and those home visits were critical then and they're critical today in keeping families together. so when you talk about prevention, we'll be working together at that. but cops know loot about prevention, and the frustrating for an old cop, coming to a congress, is that there's a tendency by politicians -- and i experienced this in king county and working as the sheriff with the king county commissioners and council members, there's called in seattle -- there's this tendency to put out brush fires, and there's some political expediency there and political value in that,
immediate value saying, look what i've done or fixed, but it hasn't fix effected a doggone gone thing. just spent money that could have been spent on prevention. so when we think about how we're going solve this problem, it's already been said, but i see this so clearly from my past profession. if we can't understand that putting our money up front to address these issues, to keep families together to find loving families for these foster kids to expedite adoption processes and get these young kids into permanent homes, we're going to lose this battle. we will never win this battle if we don't focus on prevention. each and every one of the witnesses who came forward in the human resources subcommittee testimony, who were young ladies who have more than survived but they've excelled and been named most important -- top 100 influential people in the
country or the world. i don't know. it is an amazing feat to accomplish -- the accomplishments they've made. but if we don't understand prevention, and put our money there -- because at the back end, what we're going to do is -- what we are doing is we're paying for mental health counseling, we're paying for drug and alcohol abuse counseling, we're paying for traumatic -- you know, what's called -- help me out -- yes -- ptsd. we're paying for those things versus paying up front and keeping kids in families. when i was working on this case -- i have to say this. in the early 1980s, collecting body after body after body, day
after day, in some weeks six to eight bodies in a week, i wondered who cared? and you need to know, cops care. in this world today, where police officers are being attacked, as the people who are out there trying to hurt people, are there bad police officers? yes. but are there good police officers? there are lot more good cops out there than there are bad cops and we need to support our police department, because what they're doing out there for our young kids -- and i think if you talk to these foster kids and some of the young kids on the street, you'll find out, they depend on those police officers to protect them. they counsel them, and i just needed to say that because there are some big hearts out there on the street that wear the badge and --
[applause] so i wondered who was out there. we didn't get the support we thought we needed. we weren't getting the budget. we weren't getting the money to investigate those cases back then. and today, in congress, what i discovered is -- what we can -- the message today we can deliver across the country is that there are people who care, they're in this room, they're in the audience across the nation, and they're sitting on the stage, and there's a lot more support in congress and in the senate, and i thank the mccains for their support and involvement and leadership on this issue also. so, we've got to get the prevention thing. we have to focus on helping these kids get into permanent, loving homes. the one question that was asked every one of -- i don't know if i mentioned -- how did you make it? what made the difference?
what was the one thing that you can point to that made the difference? and every one answered, this way. somebody loved me. i had a family that loved me. so we can talk about programs, all the programs you want, but these kid need love and they need a home. thanks. [applause] >> well, i think that that's a really profound note end on. i want to thank our panelist for join us today. it's busy week and we're thankful for you taking the time to be here with us. so thank you so much. i appreciate it. >> also speaking, on child sex trafficking, representatives for organizations dedicated to stopping the child sex trade.
they talk about how technology has become a valuable tool. this is 45 minutes. >> hey, everybody. we're going to try to come back together for our last panel. i know it's been a wonderful but long morning, but this is a wonderful part of the morning because we are able to look at what is working. so, often when we talk about technology, right, we talk actors and illicit networks have used technology to further entrench and advance the scourge of trafficking. and that is true. there is a way that the internet and technology has created more of a marketplace
in the selling of bodies within this country and across the globe. but this panel can give voice to, if we are in the place of a modern day slavery, the efforts among these three organizations represent the underground railroad. the technology and innovation being done by each of the organizations on the panel represents the underground railroad that is saving children and adults' lives who are being trafficked and holding accountable and finding and punishing the traffickers and the buyers. so i want to start by allowing each of the organizations to give voice to the work that they are doing. these folks are heroes to us in the work. and so craig, if you can begin talking about the work that polaris has done. >> sure.
thank you. and thanks to everyone for the opportunity to talk about what we're practically doing with technology and trafficking. i did have some slides prepared and it looks like they will be here. that is wonderful. so my name is craig heckman. i work as a data analyst at polaris, and many of you are likely familiar with polaris. one of the largest programs operating the national human trafficking resource center hotline. i'll talk about that because of the fact that technology plays a giant role in the operation of that hotline and also in the data collection and data analysis we're able to do with the information that we learn from the hotline. so here is some information for those of you who may not be aware or for those on the web who would like to learn more about it. the national trafficking resource center is a 24-7 government-funded hot line for people to call in to receive refer to services or report a case of trafficking they are involved in or are aware of. and as i said, this is a 24/7 deal. since 2007 we have had around 18,000 cases of human
trafficking reported on the hotline. and so from that we are able to learn about where traffic is happening, the details of how it presents itself, who the victims are, who the traffickers are and what the trends are so that we can understand how moving forward we can better communicate with those who may be in trafficking situations. so when a call comes through they are able to quickly understand for what is available for the local. if someone is calling from ohio, we have seven different protocols for the region of ohio, and the representative on the other side of the hotline can click on that region and see the relevant law enforcement contacts and the service provider contacts for
that region and can connect the caller with those people in a way that is quick and efficient. and not only is this a path for someone to report their case and be referred directly to services or law enforcement, but because of the fact that we gather data about these calls, metrics about the calls, demographics of the victims, those type of things, we're able to map out where traffic is happening and how it is presenting itself. so this gives you an example of a heat map showing the trafficking calls we've received. so this is just one example of how we can slice the data that we wouldn't otherwise know in the field which can be very incredible. and beyond that, something we're beginning to investigate and starting to work on is doing additional network analysis on high-risk industries, so what i mean is business industries where we have seen trafficking cases reported to us. and so as an example, with no details of course, but what we can do, using information from our hotline, but then also other data sources that we're able to find on the web and
elsewhere, be able to paint a larger picture of who are these traffickers and who are the people surrounding the trafficking eco-system and what can we learn about that. not only to deal with it immediately, but also to understand how we can try to stop it in the future. and so here is an example. we have a business at a certain address. and through public business records, we're able to identify who the openers of those businesses may be. and then using all sorts of things on the web, some of them enabled by google in fact, we're able to find other businesses operating at that same address or operated at that address in the past. and then each of those people may or may not be the owner of other businesses. and those other businesses may or may not be involved in this trafficking situation as well. and so being able to understand
those relationships is important. and then on the end of each of those end points, we have all of these businesses operating in other addresses owned by other people and we start to see this network. and then another interesting angle that has had luck in the past with certain industries is holding landlords accountable for the behavior of their tenants in a commercial sense. >> this is something we're looking for information on the web to paint a larger picture. next piece of technology or program is the idea of doing global data sharing. so here in the u.s., we operate the national hotline but there are so many needs for other types of hotlines in other places. and so through a grant given to us by google we are beginning to develop this global hotline network in an attempt to replicate the success polaris had here in the united states in other places that have need. so taking our data base and sales platform and sharing that with other organizations is
incredibly useful to find ways to, in a very protective and data privacy way, share information about trafficking happening across borders. because every time we add new data to our systems, we find we get an exponential increase in the amount of knowledge and links between the cases. and the work we're doing in creating the mobile slavery so taking our data base and sales platform and sharing that with other organizations is incredibly useful to find ways to, in a very protective and data privacy way, share information about trafficking happening across borders. because every time we add new data to our systems, we find we
get an exponential increase in the amount of knowledge and links between the cases. and the work we're doing in creating the mobile slavery directory. and you can find that on the our website, but we map out anti-trafficking resources all over the world. and it is a fascinating attempt to do that and making that then public on the web for those who may need it. so here is the information on the hotline. and thank you for the opportunity to share how technology is enabling us to do our job of serving victims connecting them with the resources that they need. and i look forward to connecting people around the world to repurpose technology specifically for serving
victims and identifying those who are perpetrating them. thank you very much. >> thank you, my name is staca shehan from the national center for missing and exploited children, and that is the division in which we operate the child sex trafficking team. i have a couple of slides that will come up in a second. and essentially, for those of you that might not be aware, the national center for missing and exploited children opened in 1984, and we are the clearinghouse on issues surrounding missing and exploited children. over the past 30 years, 30-plus years now. we've changed and expanded and evolved over time and we are currently authorized by congress to operate 22 specific programs and services to support and assist law enforcement, families and the
professionals that serve them. and a big part is the analytical and recovery for missing children. and it is through these cases we are able to identify trends and patterns going on, specifically related to child sex trafficking. now data that you are seeing up here now is from -- through 2013. we're still working on finalizing the 2014 data. but i can tell you i've gotten a peek at some of it, and it remains consistent. and it is showing, unfortunately, an increase in a lot of these areas. what we do know, that will remain the same regardless of whether we include 2014 or not is the largest percentage of missing children in this country are endangered runaways. and those are the most vulnerable and the ones being targeted at a higher rate for trafficking than any other. and can you see up here on the
screen, in 2013, it was one out of seven, and the year before that was one out of eight. and it is quite possible looking at the preliminary data, that it will be one out of six or one out of five from 2014 of the endangered runaways we're seeing be victimized through trafficking. and through looking at the cases, as malika mentioned, the bad actors using technology to recruit and control the kids and more often than not we are able to see all of the different ways that technology is being used in a positive way to be able to combat this crime and provide services to the victims and to locate the victims and to be able to target the traffickers and the buyers of these children. now we also operate the cyber
tip line which is one way in which technology is being used for good. the cyber tip line started in 1998, and it is the congressionally authorized reporting mechanism for all kinds of child exploitation. and that includes child sex trafficking and child pornography, child sex tourism and online enticement that are child sexual abuse crimes that have been committed and overlapped with child sex trafficking. and through the tip line, we've receive 3 million reports to date. last year was a banner year in terms of the reports, we received over 1 million reports in one year alone, to show unfortunately this crime is not going away. but we are providing a mechanism for the public and for you to be sitting here to be vigilant and make reports. as for the electronic service provider community such as google and others that are actively reporting. we have analysts on staff using tools and technology every day to add value to the reports,
and so they are sent to law enforcement with the goal or with the hope that if there is anything there that they can utilize, they are going to possibly investigate these child sex trafficking crimes occurring throughout the united states. in 2003 we joined the fbi and the department of justice child exploitation obscenity section to create an initiative. one of the main parts of the innocence lost initiative that may have heard about or seen the media operation is the operation across country. this has evolved over time and more and more children have been recovered over time. our role, specifically, is to support the fbi as they lead this operation nationally. this past year it was one week in length, 24/7 for a week in 106 cities, and over 168 children were recovered and over 281 pimps were -- or traffickers -- were arrested. now as part of that, we're
using technology to support them. as they are developing pieces of information and they ask for our assistance, we'll use that to develop it further, to provide it back to them so they can use it on the ground. technology also allows us to do this from our headquarters in alexandria, virginia, and support the entire country while they are doing this 24/7. and now i want to talk about specifically the role of technology, and remembering it is the opportunity to harness this technology and this opportunity for good, for combatting this and helping to identify victims and to support law enforcement efforts to target those that are responsible, which are the traffickers and those that are buying these kids. specifically, just as an example related to the victims themselves, law enforcement -- and we heard this earlier, that when they are talking to these kids and encountering these children, they are not often disclosing that, one, maybe they're a a minor, or two, they are being victimized.
and those of us in the room know it has to do with the extreme abuse and violence that they have suffered at the hands of their traffickers and through the exploitation, so it is understanding why they would not disclose this information. law enforcement, when encountering victims, will reach out and ask for our assistance. are there ways we can use information? they know about the kids, are there any physical identifiers that we can search against multiple data sets using tools donated by google and others to see if it matches a missing child known to us? are there ways we can link that to information that are other kids that are missing that may be under the same control of the same trafficker? law enforcement reaches out and asks for assistance using the technology we have to further development information about the traffickers. specifically, maybe they are having -- the information that
is being posted publicly online starts to show a pattern of where the kids are being trafficked and where they are being controlled, if there are multiple kids under the same control of one trafficker and the various tools that we have access to help us start to piece together that information. it is like following bread crumbs. does one phone number lead to multiple child victims, come back to one specific trafficker? and one thing we know, this crime would not exist if there were not buyers. if there were not people who are willing to purchase another human being and specifically a child for sex, this crime would not exist. so attacking buyers and demand specifically is really crucial. now it may not be happening as much as we like, but we definitely know and we heard the senator mention it earlier there are law enforcement agencies out there who are posting ads, sting ads. the guy showed up thinking he's
purchasing sex with a child, and is instead met by an adult male law enforcement officer instead. and when these are occurring there is often little known about those buyers. so law enforcement will reach out and ask for our assistance and we use the tools that we have internally to further develop information. can you take that phone number into public records or other publicly accessible information on the internet to determine who that person might be? and in some cases, maybe they are already a convicted and registered sex offender. so we'll use the tools we have to add information to what law enforcement knows and what they are looking for our assistance with. two specific ways we are using technology to support the victim identification as well as assisting with the law enforcement investigations into traffickers and buyers is through link analysis and image analysis, trying to tie together pieces of information through very large data sets. so i3 million cyber tip line
reports. say we have a phone number or an e-mail or a screen name or a person's name and it appears in several tip lines or online ads, to be able to collect that information and tie it together to provide to law enforcement has been useful. looking at these images and seeing how photos are a big part of this crime and how it is taking place on the internet and how the internet is being misused to sell the kids, we are using that information and technology tools to further digest those photos, look to see if there is multiple victims and pictures and look to see if there is image identifiers that can be linked back and then provide that information. i'm not going to talk too much about the last two, but i do want to point out that technology is being used in amazing ways to relate it to education. today this is being live streamed, so even more people are aware of this and what is going on and are more current on it. but also through prevention
education. we know that the tools and the internet is being used to recruit and control. but we can use that same technology to empower kids with the information they need and the tools they need to be able to avoid and to thwart this victimization. so i did want to point out the education and prevention positives. i thank both google, the mccain institute, and rights 4 girls for putting together this event today. i really appreciate being part of the discussion. i've been at the national center now for over 15 years and i can honestly say that i see technology being used every day more for good than being misused for bad, and i look forward to being part of this discussion as it continues to evolve in the future. thank you. >> i want us to imagine how
reality plays a role in trafficking. so tonight, in a hotel room here in washington, d.c., let's take it out of the national problem and say it is here within probably a mile of where we are sitting. >> it is a child that two years ago did not imagine where they would be. but they probably had a hard life and in and out of foster care and may have chosen to run or to take the offer from someone who said they could give them a better life. and that person is either in the room with them, or in the parking lot, and has told this girl she needs to make a quota tonight. and so just like any of us, who have ever marketed something
she's going to go online and she's going to post her ad on back page or another site. and when it slips too far down on the page, below the fold, she's going to go online and re-up it. and maybe her trafficker is doing that for her, but very likely she may be responsible for doing it herself because she doesn't want to get beaten when she comes home. and she will do that maybe half an hour, an hour between her customers to make the money she needs to make to be safe when she goes home at night. so that is how technology is playing a role in the marketing of this child who will be victimized again and again tonight. and it will happen tonight. but that child also probably had that same experience a few nights ago. a few weeks prior. and that may have happened in d.c., or it may have happened
in virginia, or it may have happened in another state. now, what we look at is technology is playing obviously a negative role in the exploitation of trafficking, but what it is also doing is giving visibility to a crime that before we may not have had that depth of visibility to. so how do we take that data to be more proactive in finding that child quicker and connecting her with help. at one time, an officer would see the ad at this point in time. and what is the experience of the child over the past year. where have they been and how has the phone number changed. and we know she's not using her real age, because an escort
can't be under 18. she may not be using her real picture. if she is, maybe not showing her face. so the question of the role of technology is kind of the hot phrase of the day, big data. well, there is a lot of data. and our role at thorn is how do you take that data and make it actionable so that the response to these children is quick and fierce. we know that oftentimes these children will come in and out of the life multiple times before they are able to find a safe place to stay and rebuild their lives. and what we say when we use technology is how do we use data and technology to make those points in time quicker. let's not make five, seven times touch points with help over a year and a half. let's make that within just a few months. the minute they go back on the street because they have nowhere else to go, we find them and get them connected
back with help. so that is a project we're working on right now with the support of the mccain institute and with google, is using all of the available data in a more protective and intelligent manner to find the children more quickly and connect them with help. a second area of focus for us at thorn is the role of deterrence in both child sex trafficking as well as child pornography. and i'm happy to say we work with both of these organizations very closely. our mission at thorn is to drive technology innovation to fight child sexual exploitation. so we consider ourselves experts in technology and we partner with the experts on the front lines of the issue to deploy it in a manner that is helpful. but when you look at how companies can use advertising or other online means to change our behaviors, i don't know if
any of you shop online, the minute i hit a site, i can't get away from that site. they know exactly what product i looked at, they know when i was on that site, and i can't get away. well, then, why don't we know who is shopping for young girls on line? why don't we know who is looking for child pornography and make sure they can't get away either? and that is the strategy of our organization. a program that we've had up and running for three years now. through our child pornography deterrence program we have reached over a million people and created 17,000 instances of people seeking help for what they know is bad activity online and seeking help to get counseling and stop those actions. and that type of program will then move on into deterrence as well.
we know ending demand is a big aspect of this. and i'm not saying online is the only tool. it is one tool in a tool kit. but if target can reach me everywhere i go, i don't believe that people who are looking to buy a child victim for a night should be able to be free from that either. and so that is a second area of focus for us. the third area of focus for us is the work we do through our technology task force. so we run a technology task force that includes 25 companies, including google, who has been a founding member for four years now. and the idea of that is channels the best minds to think about this issue and to collaborate further. so the publishing of a sound practices guide for learning from the expertise of top companies and making sure the start-up companies moving so
quickly that often they don't think about child safety have tools in their tool kit from the beginning to implement practices that can reduce the likelihood that their platforms will be used for trafficking and child exploitation. and then the fourth and final area is the research we do. making sure that we understand directly from victims and survivors what their experience was with technology. we run the largest national survey of child sex trafficking survivors. and to hear what the role of technology was in their exploitation, and it was a few years ago that brad from polaris came to us and said, hey, we are thinking about how to expand the hotline to have greater reach for victims.
and it was the same time that we were hearing from our survey that most of the children are primary texting. they text with the trafficker, they text with their john, that is how they set up appointments. and just logically, kids text, right? so when we talked to them about calling a hotline. they said i wouldn't call a hotline, for a variety of reasons. the most obvious being, my trafficker is standing over my shoulder. and so we worked with polaris to launch the be free text short code, which was a way for victims and anyone who wanted to interact with the national human trafficking hotline to text instead of call. and what we're excited to see is that we are achieving -- i won't say we have achieved because i believe there is more work to be done. but we are achieving what we originally set out to achieve, which is give victims a more
direct and accessible way to reach out for help. so we know that about 9% of the calls that come into the hotline are victims themselves and 20% of the texts are from victims themselves. our objective this year with efforts we're undertaking is to increase that percentage and launch marketing programs that speak directly to the victims themselves and get that number in their hands. so those are just a few of the ways that we think about the role of technology and combatting trafficking and child exploitation over all. i think both of you said, we fundamentally believe -- technology is agnostic. it is not good or bad. it is whose hands it is in, in which it realizes its potential. and we always say, again because our mission is drive technology and innovation to fight child sexual exploitation. you educate more of the
brightest minds in technology about these issues and about the way the bad people are using technology, and you will have an army of good fighting against it. and that is what we aim to do. and put great tools in the hands of people on the front lines, like malika and staca and the team at polaris. so thank you for having us here today to the mccain institute and to google to be part of this conversation. it is a hard topic that we all work on, but i think our team often says we get motivated and inspired by the potential we see in what can be done when you motivate forces and kind of the brains and talent in this room and in technology in general. >> thank you so much. you know, i just want to drill down a little bit more on what
each of you has presented. and craig, i guess one question i have for you is that in light of how we are able to collect and unearth all of this data what are we learning? and in particular, what are we learning about child trafficking in the united states and the networks of buyers and traffickers operating within our borders? >> sure. great question. so polaris has been dedicated to collecting information about this and making it as publicly available as we can while keeping in check all of the privacy considerations. but we do publish regular reports regarding the statistics of our hotline. and so if we want specific details and specific numbers those are the best sources for that rather than me try to throw off and memorize figures. but one of the most interesting ones that i think is the big difference as julie mentioned of the number of calls relevant to a specific trafficking
situation versus the number of texts relevant to a very specific trafficking situation it is really interesting. we can slice and dice the data according to however many dozen of different fields we track to get new interesting things. but my recommendation would be to reference those reports specifically to get the best data. >> so first i need to just say that the -- we started out this morning by talking about the no-such-thing campaign, no such thing as a child prostitute. but i want to acknowledge that the national center for missing and exploited children on day one of its existence recognized that these children were not children who were prostitutes, these children were victims and survivors. i often tell the story of having a meeting between nicmic and childcare workers where
carolyn davis was in that meeting. and these were good people who cared about children, and they kept referring to the girls as delinquents, as bad girls. and carolyn said, no, these girls are victims of crime. and so i just think it is important that we come full circle today in it recognizing where nicmic insisted we about years ago and where we are trying to be today. i just want to ask you, staca, often when we talk about the need to go after demand and the buyers, the response is -- but it's so hard to go after the buyers. it is much easier to go after the traffickers, from a technology perspective and law enforcement perspective. and if you could just talk about that a little. if you could debunk for us, how in fact, technology, if harnessed correctly, does allow us to effectively go after
buyers? >> i think technology, when we are talking about going after demand and buyers specifically has been a game-changer. the way that this crime has evolved and the way technology is being integrated into this crime has opened up the opportunity for it to be more public, and it to be more accessible for law enforcement for analysts, for everyone to play a role in highlighting the instigator of this crime, which is the buyers. and when this crime is taking place, via julie and craig mentioned, sometimes short conversations, text messages between the victims and the buyer themselves, technology is being used to have that conversation. which then provides an avenue for law enforcement to have that information about what took place.
and in the instance of making and debunking a little bit of the idea of going after buyers and targeting demand being too difficult, we're seeing -- and many of you have seen probably news articles about it being public that law enforcement is conducting stings. they are seeing the positive ways that technology can be used to go after this. so to debunk it, technology is really the key and it has been the game-changer. what we've been able to do and to help support law enforcement efforts with that is to again use technology. they often don't know who this person is they might be meeting with. the buyer thinks they are about to meet a 14 or 15-year-old girl or boy and the law enforcement officer may only have a phone number to go on at that point. they may reach out and ask for our assistance. and what are we going to turn to, and that is technology. to further develop that piece of information to develop info
on who that person might be in real life. i mentioned earlier, it is about following the bread crumbs. maybe some online social networking websites or a piece of information from our internal systems and a piece of information from public records. and when you tie that altogether, you are able to have a much more comprehensive idea of who law enforcement will be interacting with that evening. >> so, julie, because you are so wonderful, i'm going to ask you two questions. the first is could you just talk a little bit about the difference in using technology to go after demand for child porn, versus demand for child sex? and then also, part of what i'm excited in the work you are getting started to do is around child welfare. so if you could just talk a little bit about the work that is ahead of thorn in looking at this intersection between child welfare and child trafficking?